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valentine.piper
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 07:31 pm |
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| Thank you much for your very good information. I emailed my offer to settle to him two days ago & also sent him a text message to his cell phone asking him to check his email, but I have heard nothing so far. I'm not exactly sure what that means so I guess I'll just have to wait & see. I do not have access to a printer at this time, otherwise I would just mail it to him. Suffice it say I WILL NEVER AGAIN DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS WITHOUT PUTTING IN WRITING. I have learned some valuable lessons here.
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ozzy92
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 06:25 pm |
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It sounds like you are getting closer to an agreement with your ex-roommate, which is good for you. Pretty much any agreement you make with him will be legal. If he agrees to let you keep the $150 deposit and August rent, that's perfectly legal.
What's not legal is holding that deposit and all his rent if he doesn't agree. You can't decide for yourself what is "fair", either he has to agree to it, or a court decides what's fair and legal. It will certainly be easier if you both agree than to go to court, so keep trying to get an agreement with him. Definitely get your final agreement with him in writing, so you can prove it if you need to.
In regards to your questions, the laws on "deposits" are pretty clear:
(11) "Deposit money" means any money held by the landlord on behalf of the tenant, including, but not limited to, damage deposits, security deposits, advance rent deposit, pet deposit, or any contractual deposit agreed to between landlord and tenant either in writing or orally.
(12) "Security deposits" means any moneys held by the landlord as security for the performance of the rental agreement, including, but not limited to, monetary damage to the landlord caused by the tenant's breach of lease prior to the expiration thereof.
There is an entire section about how you must handle and return these deposits. You can see the laws for Florida at the top of this page in Legal Resources.
http://laws.uslandlord.com/laws/flstatelaw3.html
Looks like your landlord is allowed to charge a "pet fee" for pets in Florida.
Your landlords response is correct in how to handle this situation, IF YOU HAVE A WRITTEN LEASE! I can't state that loud enough. Verbal agreements are very hard to prove, which is your main problem here.
If you have a 6 month agreement, you can hold someone to six months of rent. I think that if you did have a written lease, you could have held all the money without issues. When a tenant leaves early, they are still responsible for the rest of the lease. So yes, your landlord is correct that she could hold all his money. Normally, if a landlord finds a new tenant for time the old tenant has already paid for, that portion of rent should be returned, but I don't see anything about that in Florida's laws.
As for the dog, the laws for Florida say she can either give a 7 day notice to cure, giving the tenant 7 days to remove the dog, or she can evict immediately with 7 days notice. It takes a lawyer and judge to decide if a dog is serious enough to indicate an immediate eviction. The law doesn't cover dogs specifically, but I think you could get away with an 7 day termination, because it's an "intentional" breach of the agreement.
So when you need to find your next roommate, and you both agree to six months, write it on a piece of paper, and both of you sign it. Then you won't have any problems, and you can keep all the deposits 
As always, I'm not a lawyer, so this is not legal advice. Talk to a real lawyer if you need actual advice.
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valentine.piper
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 10:25 pm |
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| I would like to ad what I hope is my final comment on my situation with regard to the dog issue. My landlady does allow some pets in the building, but NOT dogs. Further, she charges a non-refundable fee of $200 to anyone who has a pet which in all cases in this building, are cats.
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valentine.piper
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 10:17 pm |
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| Thank you for your extremely informative reply to my posting. I especially liked your suggestion with regard to having my former roommate sign the agreement where I am offering to return half of the last month's rent but none of the $150 deposit. As I mentioned previously, I consulted my own landlady as to how she would handle this situation. I called her a second time & she informed me under the same set of circumstances, the only difference being that the person was actually on a 6 month signed lease, she would first have evicted that individual immediately because of the dog, which according to MY lease, is not allowed, unless however, they were willing to get rid of the dog immediately. Also, if that person chose to break the 6 month lease himself by chosing to move out after less than a month of tenancy she told me she would NOT return any of the deposit or last month's rent. I am uncertain myself if this would be correct under the Florida statutes but it does sound reasonable to me. I sent the former roomie a letter via email, as my printer is not working right now, but I have not yet received a response. He may still be in the process of unpacking, etc., & might not have checked his emails yet. At this moment I am not at all certain whether or not he will actually agree to the settlement I am offering. I told him if he did not agree, to put his objections in writing & that further he was also welcome to sue me in Small Claims Court. I am trying to the best of my ability to be as fair as I possibly can to both of us. As I stated earlier, I had initially told him from the very beginning the $150 security/cleaning/utility deposit was NON-REFUNDABLE. I am not certain if it is legal to ask for a non-refundable deposit & was not able to find anything with regard to that matter when I researched the Florida laws & statutes. I did read somewhere, though I am not sure where, that with regard to his rights, they would not be the same as an actual tenant who was on the signed lease. Perhaps, if you are able to, you could let me know whether or not it is legal to charge a non-refundable deposit under any circumstances. About a year ago when I lived in another city & while I was in the process of moving to Daytona Beach, I had another roommate catch me off guard by asking for the return of his $100 deposit. Unfortunately, I gave him the money on the spot only to be stuck with a $140 cell phone bill. I had added him to my "family plan" in order to help him as he was at that time using one of the "pay as you go" prepaid plans which are very expensive. Getting back to the questions I would like to have answered, it now boils down to this. 1. Is it legal to charge a non-refundable deposit? 2. Am I within the law by offering to return 1/2 of the last month's rent? One last comment...my former roommate is now claiming he actually gave notice to vacate on July 1st so my question to him is that if that is actually true, then why would he have paid me the first & last month's rent at that time? It would obviously make a lot more sense for him to have paid for ONLY that one month. My recollection is that he did not give me formal notice to move until July 10th & that he would be moving out on July 19th, which is only a 9 day notice & not a 30 day notice as he claims. Any additionaly information you may be able to provide will be greatly appreciated as I do not want to make the same mistakes in the future if I decide to get another roommate. At this time, fortunately, I think I can afford my apartment on my own. YEAAAAAAYY!!!
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LandlordLaura
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 12:55 pm |
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I am glad to hear that you and your Tenant were able to work things out. It sounds like you both compromised and came up with an agreement that suited both sides. I would get it in writing, signed by all parties, so that you have proof of the agreement that was reached. If the Tenant should decide to take you to court, and you have no way of proving anything you verbally discussed and/or agreed to, the Judge will have to make a ruling based on the Landlord Tenant Laws that apply.
For the future, to protect yourself, get Lease agreements in writing and signed by all parties. If your Landlord is using you as a "go-between" and/or agent in regard to sub-Leasing the property, you are personally and legally responsilbe for any legal contract (Lease Agreement) that is made. You will not be able to "fall back" on your Landlord because the Landlord was not part of the Lease Agreement.
Why do you think that you do not have to follow the Laws? (Unless the subject property is one of the excluded property types as listed in the Laws, in which case, the entire post does not apply to your situation...) You really need to investigate, know and FOLLOW the Laws because, from what you posted, you do not seem to realize that he IS a legal Tenant as soon as you enter into a verbal or written Lease Agreement with him. At that point, you become a Landlord and your contract (Lease Agreement) is subject to all Laws that apply. In my opinion, your "fairness" principal does not apply at all in this case because you are not actually following the Landlord Tenant Laws which you are required to follow when you become a Landlord by leasing your property to a Tenant. YOUR definitions of "Lease", "Tenant", "Landlord", "Deposit", "Refundable/Non-Refundable Deposit", etc. have nothing to do with reality (the Law) based on the Laws that I read. As another Landlord also posted previously, your Lease is with your Landlord is a totally separate contract between you and your Landlord/Property Owner. The sub-Leasing Tenant's Lease is with you as Landlord (whether you are an agent of your own Landlord or not) and YOU are responsible for following the State/County/City Landlord Tenant Laws.
As I stated before, I am just concerned that you don't get it and would like for you to have a "head's up" and consider the circumstances that you are putting yourself in.
Last edited on Sat Jul 19th, 2008 02:14 pm by LandlordLaura
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valentine.piper
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Posted: Sat Jul 19th, 2008 12:25 am |
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| The entire matter has been resolved. As I orignally stated, however, I had told him the $150 deposit was non-refundable. Whatever claim I might have considered was clearly forfeited when he chose to move a dog into my apartment without my consent (or knowledge) or the approval from my landlady who had already told him he could not do this. I have agreed, however, to refund half of the last month's rent even though he did not, in actuality, give me 30 days notice. He told me on July 10th he would be moving out on July 19th. Also, since he is not actually a legal tenant (not on the lease here) that does put him at a disadvantage. I think I am being more than fair, but if any of you disagree, feel free to let me know.
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ozzy92
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:32 pm |
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Oh, and I forgot this part:
At the time he moved in I was having some financial difficulties & he agreed to pay all the utility charges due at that time & I would pay all of them the following month (August).
So you owe him 1/2 the utilities for July, and he will owe half utilities for August 1st-10th (if he agrees to it), which probably means you owe him for 1/2 utilities rather than him owing you, and the whole $150 will have to go back to him.
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ozzy92
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:12 pm |
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Valentine, you seem to be twisting definitions to see what you want to see because you are angry with your roommate, and not what is legally required. I don't rent in Florida either, but the laws seem pretty clear and extensive. You can see them at the top of this page in Legal Resources. There may also be local laws for your city and county.
Laura, as always gives good advice. I'll give you my accounting:
Because I am not actually a landlord, per se, just a tenant with a lease, that does change things considerably & also puts my roommate at a great disadvantage.
This is not true at all. You have tenant/landlord relationship with your landlord to rent your apartment. It appears this roommate entered an agreement with you to share the apartment, and your landlord was not involved. If this is the case, you are sub-letting a portion of the apartment and acting as landlord. You are required to follow all laws that apply to landlords, and any subletting laws, in addition to your own lease agreement with your landlord.
he gave me his word, verbally, he would stay here for at least 6 months. Naturally, neither of us has anything in writing.
Since you have nothing in writing, if he disputes this, you have a month-to-month lease by default based on month-to-month payments. It seems highly likely he will dispute this. Florida state has a 15 day notice period for month-to-month leases (from what I see).
On the 10th of July, he told me he would be moving out on July 19th.
This means his notice period starts on July 10th for 15 days, meaning he can occupy and pay rent until July 25th. Since you still have nothing in writing, the notice date could be in dispute as well.
& an essentially non-refundable security deposit of $150.
I'm not sure why you keep saying non-refundable security deposit. There is no such thing as a non-refundable deposit. If something is not refundable, it is a fee, and needs to be clearly stated as such, and what the fee is for. With nothing in writing it seems this amount will be in dispute as well.
Security deposits must always be applied to expenses or damages, and if there is none, they must be returned. I looks like you have 15 days to give an accounting of how you will apply the security deposit. You say that it was for 1/2 utilities for his last month since some utilities are payable after the month, so I would say you have to apply it to those utilities for July, and return the rest.
I agreed to give him 30 days notice if I needed him to move out & he, in turn, promised to provide me with at least a 30-day notice if he chose to move out.
If he actually agrees to this, and agrees to be responsible for rent until Aug 10th, then you should take it. The law (as appears to me) gives him 15 days, rather than 30.
Whatever claim I may have considered with regard the security deposit, was now totally forfeited because of the dog situation.
The dog appears to be a breach of your agreement, but I think it would be difficult for you to show that the dog is worth $150, unless you can show the dog caused damages somehow. Normally an agreement breach requires a notice to cure, giving the tenant (your roommate) a certain amount of time to fix the breach (get rid of the dog). Since the roommate agreed to leave early, I think he did cure the breach, and a court will likely agree with him that the dog was removed as required.
He moved in 2 days before the 1st of July, & paid the first month's rent for July, $325, the last month's rent & an essentially non-refundable security deposit of $150.
So he paid $325 for July, and essentially $325 for August as his last month, plus $150 deposit for utilities. Here's my take: His notice and 30 day notice agreement, means he owes rent until August 10th, and is paid through August 31st. This means you owe him 21 days rent for august, plus the $150 deposit, minus 1/2 utilities and any physical damages to the appartment. You have 15 days to tell him how much the utilities and damages will be, and return the money, with 45 days to settle a dispute.
If you can work this out with him, I think you do that, and consider it a learning experience. If he takes you to court, you will not win and owe him the money anyway, based on my understanding of what you've stated.
Next time, get written aggreements for lease terms, such as the 6 month lenght minumum, and 15 day notice, no dogs, etc. Good luck.
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LandlordLaura
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 04:54 pm |
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In your post, you said, "Common sense, though not necessarily the law, dictates I would not have rented to him in the first place had I known he was merely using my home for such temporary quarters." Unfortunately, your version of common sense and the Tenant's version of common sense will probably be considerably different. You cannot legally depend on statement that "...he gave me his word he would be staying here for a minimum of 6 months." Unfortunately, the Tenant can (and probably will) claim that 30 days notice was never discussed at all and that Florida Landlord Tenant Laws clearly allow a 15 day notification prior to the following rent payment date.
You also posted, "I've told him he is welcome to stay here until the 10th of August, provided he get rid of his dog but he has declined this offer." Allowing the dog to stay without providing the Tenant with a legal and properly served written lease violation notice could prevent you from claiming that the dog is a violation of the Lease Agreement, per the following (partial) section of the Laws:
...
Termination of rental agreement:
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(5) If the landlord accepts rent with actual knowledge of a noncompliance by the tenant or accepts performance by the tenant of any other provision of the rental agreement that is at variance with its provisions, or if the tenant pays rent with actual knowledge of a noncompliance by the landlord or accepts performance by the landlord of any other provision of the rental agreement that is at variance with its provisions, the landlord or tenant waives his or her right to terminate the rental agreement or to bring a civil action for that noncompliance, but not for any subsequent or continuing noncompliance. Any tenant who wishes to defend against an action by the landlord for possession of the unit for noncompliance of the rental agreement or of relevant statutes shall comply with the provisions in s. 83.60(2). ...
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LandlordLaura
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 04:38 pm |
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I am giving you feedback based on my experience as a Landlord. In general, a "Landlord" becomes a Landlord when he/she Leases a property or portion of a property to a Tenant. Therefore, you became the Landlord when you took your Tenant's deposit and made an oral agreement to Lease the property to him/her. I'm confused with what you have posted. Are you saying that Florida Landlord Tenant Laws make a legal distinction between a Landlord who owns the rental property (your Landlord) and a Landlord (you) who is sub-Leasing a portion of a rented property to a Tenant under a separate Lease Agreement?
Many States have inacted Landlord Tenant Laws that actially apply in the absence of written agreements because verbal discussions/conversations cannot be proven. Based on what you posted, it seems that your Tenant does not agree with your requirement for a 30 day move-out notification. According to your post, the Tenant is within his rights to move out at month end without penalty because the Florida Landlord Tenant Laws (and the following are just sections of the Laws...) state the following:
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Rent; duration of tenancies:
(1) Unless otherwise agreed, rent is payable without demand or notice; periodic rent is payable at the beginning of each rent payment period; and rent is uniformly apportionable from day to day.
(2) If the rental agreement contains no provision as to duration of the tenancy, the duration is determined by the periods for which the rent is payable. If the rent is payable weekly, then the tenancy is from week to week; if payable monthly, tenancy is from month to month; if payable quarterly, tenancy is from quarter to quarter; if payable yearly, tenancy is from year to year.
...
Title VI, Ch. 83, Sec. 83.46
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Termination of tenancy without specific term: A tenancy without a specific duration, as defined in s. 83.46(2) or (3), may be terminated by either party giving written notice in the manner provided in s. 83.56(4), as follows:
(1) When the tenancy is from year to year, by giving not less than 60 days' notice prior to the end of any annual period;
(2) When the tenancy is from quarter to quarter, by giving not less than 30 days' notice prior to the end of any quarterly period;
(3) When the tenancy is from month to month, by giving not less than 15 days' notice prior to the end of any monthly period; and
(4) When the tenancy is from week to week, by giving not less than 7 days' notice prior to the end of any weekly period. Title VI, Ch. 83, Sec. 83.57
Again, I do not own rental property in Florida. If I have misunderstood the Florida Landlord Tenant Laws (as found through the 'Legal Resources' link at the top of this webpage), please refer me to the section that I misunderstood...
Regarding the "deposit" and/or "security deposit", your written receipt of the funds will be important if the Tenant takes you to court because of a disagreement with your decision to withhold deposit funds. The following are definitions of the Florida Landlord Tenant Act:
...
11) "Deposit money" means any money held by the landlord on behalf of the tenant, including, but not limited to, damage deposits, security deposits, advance rent deposit, pet deposit, or any contractual deposit agreed to between landlord and tenant either in writing or orally.
(12) "Security deposits" means any moneys held by the landlord as security for the performance of the rental agreement, including, but not limited to, monetary damage to the landlord caused by the tenant's breach of lease prior to the expiration thereof.
...
Playing "devil's advocate", your Tenant could claim that the $150. deposit you state is "moot" was actually a pet deposit, for example. How could you prove otherwise unless you wrote a receipt for the money and/or you had a written Lease stating that pets are not allowed?
It is important that you have written proof to back yourself up. I am just attempting to give you a "head's up" in regard to what you could be facing if the Tenant does not agree with your withholding funds from his/her deposit. Maybe someone who owns rental property in Daytona Beach, FL will read your post and post a response for you.
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valentine.piper
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:36 am |
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| Actually, before writing to this site, I already did some extensive research. Because I am not actually a landlord, per se, just a tenant with a lease, that does change things considerably & also puts my roommate at a great disadvantage. The roommate is actually the one who chose the words "30-day notice" as that is what we agreed to at the time he moved in. I agreed to give him 30 days notice if I needed him to move out & he, in turn, promised to provide me with at least a 30-day notice if he chose to move out. I'm uncertain whether or not I previously mentioned this or not, but I think it is important to take into consideration the fact that he gave me his word he would be staying here for a minimum of 6 months. Prior to his move in, in fact, he flew down here from New Jersey & spent 6 days in my apartment before concluding he would like to be my roommate. I had every reason to believe he would staying for at least a few months at the least. I also made it very clear I was looking for someone to stay here for at least 6 months as I'd had other roommates before him, who moved out after a very short time. Common sense, though not necessarily the law, dictates I would not have rented to him in the first place had I known he was merely using my home for such temporary quarters. As I stated origninally, he is trying to make the first month & the last month, the same. If that were the case, he should not have paid me rent for July at all. It just wouldn't make sense. With regard to the $150 deposit, that issue is moot. What I am now asking though, is if it is correct to apply the last month's rent to August? I don't see how it could apply to July since he already paid for July's rent. I've told him he is welcome to stay here until the 10th of August, provided he get rid of his dog but he has declined this offer. Thanks for your input, though.
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LandlordLaura
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:12 am |
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I do not own property in Florida myself. I do know that Florida has complicated and very distinct Landlord Tenant Laws. These are just some things to think about: It is important to check and see if there are any additional County/City Laws that you are required to follow. If you have not already done so, read through the applicable Landlord Tenant Laws so that you are familiar with your responsibilities as a Landlord and what your Tenant's responsibilities are. Landlords have to be very careful to follow the Laws and, if you do not follow the Laws to the letter, you could be subject to penalties. You could also lose your ability to enforce the Lease Agreement if you choose to "ignore" violations and/or do not provide the Tenant with legally required violation notifications.
You mentioned that you took a "non-refundable" security deposit from the Tenant as well as 1st and last months' rent. Be sure that you have followed the Landlord Tenant Laws and that the Law allows you to take those specific types/amounts of deposits. State Laws vary quite a bit in regard to security deposit limits, what the term security deposit actually means and whether or not the Landlord must provide bank statements/proof of security deposits received from Tenants. Most States do not allow a "non-refundable" security deposit to be taken. Your wording in any written receipts you provided will have to be carefully reviewed... Additionally, you will have to follow the Laws in re: how you account for/return/keep any deposits taken.
If you do not have a written Lease Agreement, you probably have a verbal month-to-month Lease Agreement with the Tenant by default. Check the Laws to see how this is addressed.
You mentioned that the Tenant provided you with a "30 day" move-out notification, however, the Tenant gave you the notification on 07/10 for a 07/19 move-out, which is a much shorter notification. Why are you considering the notification a "30 day" notification. You will have to be very careful to follow the Laws re: move-out notification requirements because you do not have any other agreement in writing, right? Find out how the Laws address this issue, too.
Let us know what you find out by doing specific research...
Last edited on Fri Jul 18th, 2008 05:18 am by LandlordLaura
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valentine.piper
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 01:21 am |
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| I live in Daytona Beach, Florida. I placed an ad on the craigslist website in the first part of June in hopes of finding a roommate. I was contacted by a gentleman from another state who was moving to Daytona & he was very anxious to rent the room from me. Prior to moving in he came to D.B. for six days to see my apartment & decided it would suit his needs. He gave me the pro-rated rent for the remainder of June. We agreed to split 50/50 the cost of all utilities. He moved in 2 days before the 1st of July, & paid the first month's rent for July, $325, the last month's rent & an essentially non-refundable security deposit of $150. The primary reason for the security deposit was to cover his portion of the utilities during his last month. Except for the cable/internet which is billed in advance, everything else is billed AFTER the services are rendered. At the time he moved in I was having some financial difficulties & he agreed to pay all the utility charges due at that time & I would pay all of them the following month (August). After that, we would return to our original agreement. During his 6-day visit prior to moving in, he gave me his word, verbally, he would stay here for at least 6 months. On the 10th of July, he told me he would be moving out on July 19th. To complicate matters, he also bought a dog. We'd previously discussed this & I & my landlady told him no dogs were allowed here, so literally went behind my back. At NO time did he ever ask for my permission so I was completely caught off guard. His explaination was that it would only be for about 10 days. If he had consulted me, however, I would have told him to wait until he moved into his new apartment. Now, of course, he is asking me to return not only his $150 security deposit, but the $325 for the last month's rent. Whatever claim I may have considered with regard the security deposit, was now totally forfeited because of the dog situation. Now, since he gave me his 30-day notice on July 10th & notified me he would actually move out on July 19th, he believes he is entitled to a full refund of the $325 last month's rent. As his 30-day notice runs from July 10th to August 10th, I believe the last month's rent money should be applied to August. He feels, since he is actually moving out on the 19th, he should be entitled to a full refund of the $325. I believe his actual move out date is irrelevant & that, in fact, he would actually be entitled to stay until the end of August. Whether or not he wants to move out before then is completely his choice. Naturally, neither of us has anything in writing. I have also pointed out the fact I would NEVER have rented the room to him to begin with had I known he was just using it for a temporary place to live while he looked & found something more suitable for his needs. I would like to know whether my accounting & application of the last month's rent & security deposit is correct. If it is not, I would appreciate an explainations. Thanks for any advice or information you may be able to provide.
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